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March 19, 2024
The Evolution of Fan Engagement with Pat Cheung
Are you looking to enhance fan engagement and broaden the reach of your podcast in innovative ways? Today, we have a captivating discussion with Pat Cheung, the founder of Fanlist, formerly known as PodInbox, as we explore the evolution of his company and its potential to transform your show.
Fanlist was created by Pat Cheung with the aim of simplifying the process for podcasters to effortlessly receive audio messages from their fans. As a seasoned UX designer, Pat understands the importance of simplicity and user-friendly interfaces in driving engagement.
In this episode, we explore the inspiration behind Fanlist's creation, its evolution over time, and the game-changing features it offers podcasters looking for stronger connections with their audiences.
Podcasters seeking to enhance fan engagement and discover fresh avenues for community interaction should tune in to this captivating episode.
IN THIS EPISODE, WE COVER:
- (01:10) Pat's journey from launching PodInbox's lifetime plan to the rebranding and evolution into Fanlist.
- (04:53) Unveiling the power of Fanlist's fan pages as a highly intuitive hub for fan engagement and creator-fan interactions.
- (06:40) The significance of audio messaging and its portrayal as the gateway to building deeper connections with listeners.
- (10:11) Fanlist's pioneering approach to fan monetization through donations, subscriptions, and other supporter-exclusive features.
Links and resources mentioned in this episode:
- Check out Fanlist (formerly PodInbox): fanlist.com, Twitter, Instagram
- Connect with Pat on LinkedIn, Twitter
Pat's Hardware:
- Sony A7ii - https://amzn.to/49jc4ne
- Djii Pocket 3 - https://amzn.to/3SlzG3B
**As an Amazon Associate, we may earn commissions from qualifying purchases of podcasting gear from Amazon.com. We also participate in affiliate programs with many of the software services mentioned on our website. If you purchase something through the links we provide, we may earn a commission at no extra cost to you. The team at Podcasting Tech only recommends products and services that we would use ourselves and that we believe will provide value to our viewers and readers.**
For additional resources and insights visit podcastingtech.com or follow us on social media:
- Instagram: @mathewpassy
- LinkedIn - /mathewpassy
- Threads: @mathewpassy
- Twitter/X: @mathewpassy
- Facebook - /podcastingtech, /mathewpassy
PODCASTING TECH IS POWERED BY:
- Podpage - Build a beautiful podcast website in 5 minutes
- Podgagement - Engage your audience and grow your podcast!
- Captivate - Easy, professional podcast hosting to create, grow and make money from your podcasts.
- Riverside.fm - Record Podcasts And Videos From Anywhere
- Castmagic - 10x Audio Content With AI
EQUIPMENT IN USE:
- Rodecaster Pro 1st Gen (No longer available). Consider the Rodecaster Duo or Rodecaster Pro II
- EV RE20 with 309a Shockmount
- Rode PSA1+
- iPhone continuity camera but previously the Logitech Brio 4k
- DCMEKA In-Ear Monitors
- BusyBox Smart Sign
Transcript
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Here on Podcasting Tech, we're always looking at companies,
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solutions, software, things that can help the podcaster, help
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them be more successful, help them grow their show,
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and grow their show in ways that maybe they hadn't even thought of. With that
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in mind, we are delighted to be chatting with Pat Chung. He's the founder of
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Famlyst, formerly Pod Inbox. Pat, thank you so much for joining
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us. Hey. Thanks for having me. So I remember first learning
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about Pod Inbox. You were a company at, I
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believe, Podfest or maybe Podcast Movement, and you were doing this
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giveaway that basically, you know, buy one time lifetime plan. And the whole idea
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was it was this little widget that podcasters could
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use, put on their website, and fans could record audio
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messages that then the podcasters could use on their show. But you've
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evolved tremendously since then. So kinda take us through just a
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little bit about the beginning and and where you're kinda heading these days.
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Sure. Wow. If you remember the lifetime plan, so you were one of the early,
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early ones. Yeah. Yeah. So we launched a
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podcast movement, about, I think, over 3 years ago
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now. And yeah. Yeah. We launched with a lifetime plan. We
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came out with a really simple idea with which is,
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we saw this need that podcasters had, which is to receive
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audio messages from fans. So we looked across a lot of prolific
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podcasters, and we found that, a lot of them had this segment on
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their show where they're where they feature a fan message.
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So we kind of looked at, oh, how are they getting that fan message? Because
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it wasn't too straightforward, with some of the podcasts that I
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follow. I'm like, oh, we heard a lot of Podcasting say email us, you know,
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your message, which we thought, you know, that's kinda cumbersome. I
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at that time, I probably wouldn't even know how to kind of record something on
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my phone and kind of email it to them. Right? So we thought,
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let's build a better solution for that. Yeah. So that's what we set out to
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do, and, yeah, we created that. It was pretty full featured actually by
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the time we launched, and, yeah, sold a lot of one time deals. I
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think I remember actually communicating with you and saying that I thought you should
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have the ability to like, I think you originally had to be on the Pod
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Inbox website, but I said, what if we can embed this on our website?
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And I believe you responded pretty quickly saying, yes. We'll work on that. And then
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it was like, a few days later, you guys had it up and running. So
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you are very responsive, to the folks and to the fans who are out
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there. So Yeah. How did it start to evolve? Where did
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it go from there? Sure. That's a great question. And maybe I'll kinda address what
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you said about the widget. Actually, we're not actually big fans of the widget.
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So we do have a widget because people are asking for it, but I think
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what people want to do is drive people to their website, which is
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understandable. Your website's your brand. But,
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you know, I've been a UX designer, a user experience
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designer for over 15 years.
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And what, you know, personally branded websites don't do
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well is a lot of times they're kind of confusing for
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users, just to be totally frank. Right? They they they talk a lot about
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themselves. They they have content, you know, that
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people wanna engage in. So there's just a lot going on. And when you when
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you jump to sort of personal website to personal website as a
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fan, you don't really like, there Tech some it
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takes some time for that person to digest what's going on in that website and
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to really understand it. Right? So the reason why I'm
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not a big fan of that widget that we built is the
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widget is usually a very direct call to action. Right? So if
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you want someone to, you know, take an
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action on your website, your personal branded website is
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oftentimes not the best place to do it because there's a just a lot
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to sort of understand. And a lot of, you know, people
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nowadays, and even back then when I first started being a UX
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designer, they just don't have the attention span to kinda, you know, go through
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everything. So we really, you know, to answer your question,
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how how we evolved is we really put a lot more
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energy into the fan page. So the fan page is
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built so that it's just super intuitive and super, simple.
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So when you're a fan going to a podcaster's fan page or a
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creator's fan page, it's very obvious what what the creator
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wants that fan to do. And, yeah, message is a big part of it.
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That said, yeah, we we updated the widget too. The widget's super powerful. It's probably
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the best widget on on the market. But, you know, when we
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really you know, I do a lot of demos still for the product. And
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whenever I sort of coach or train podcasters, I'm like, Mathew. Use the
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widget. You know, you you might see some conversion of
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of fans taking an action. But if you really wanna take an action, you know,
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just link to the fan page. That that's where they could take
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not only one action, but many more actions, you know, which also to
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answer your question, how do we evolve? We yeah. We
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developed a lot more features that we can't just fit on a widget
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and and those features around monetization. Right? We kind of
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asked ourselves, how else can a fan engage other than
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leaving audio messages and text messages? Well, we thought, you know, a
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lot of fans wanna support the show. They wanna donate. They wanna buy stuff.
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They wanna, subscribe. Yeah. So things like
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that. Yeah. Not not not not not to sell it too much, but, yeah, that's
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how we evolved. No. I mean, that's exactly what we should be doing is selling
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it so that folks can check it out and see if it's right for them.
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So just to, you know, summarize for folks, some of the core product
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features of FamelessNow. Again, you still have the ability to
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message folks. You do lead capture. You can do memberships,
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private subscriptions, tips and donations, paid perks, chat
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rooms, widgets, and a leaderboard, which I love the
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gamification of Podcasting. That's always a nice way to
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drive interest. People always like to win the game. What are you finding
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is the most used feature with podcasters
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today that are using Fanlist? Yeah. Good question.
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I think it's still the audio messaging feature. I think it's
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probably because that's what we launched with, and that's what people have known us for
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for a long time. So which is maybe kind of lead into you
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know, we went through a branding change. When we first launched, we were called Pod
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Inbox. We wanted to give an inbox for podcasters,
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like this audio inbox, that hence the name. But
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after we, you know, created this whole suite of features,
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we're like, is the inbox still the most important thing? We're like,
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actually, no. Probably probably not. As much as that's
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probably the most used feature, we kind of see that as
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the lead funnel now. Right? So let's say you're a podcaster and you're like, you
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know, I really want my fans to engage. I really wanna build my newsletter email
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list. Right? That's kinda what they teach all of us to try to build that
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email list that you could own that fan, right, versus kinda borrowing it
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from social media platforms. So we're like, well, yeah.
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You know, that's how we kinda changed the name too. We're like, well, our platform
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is really to help creators and podcasters build their fan
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list, to build their email list. So we're like, fan list is a pretty good
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name. I mean, to answer your question, the the most
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used feature is the inbox, and we think that's a great first
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feature to use. Right? Because if you're a Podcasting wanting to
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build your email list, oftentimes they kinda teach us to, you know, have
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that, lead gen, that that kind of free giveaway. What
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better free giveaway for a podcaster than to, you know, tell your fans, hey. You
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could leave a message here. I'll I'll listen to it. I'll reply to it, and
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we might even feature it on the show. Right? So as they kinda dive
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into your fan page and they say, oh, not only can I leave a message,
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I could do all these other things too? So we kinda like that the inbox
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is like the first touch for for any fan. And then you also
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have like I said, once you get people to maybe leave a message down, you're
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doing email capture, then you can sell them on the memberships, the donations,
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the private subscriptions. Are you finding
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that a lot of shows are seeing
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success with those features? I think many small podcasters
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worry that or fine sometimes even that, you know, just
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because they create these paid features doesn't mean anybody's actually
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joining them. Yeah. I mean, I think
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it's important to set expectations. One of the
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things we teach a lot is sort of kind of a common rule of the
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Internet is, like, about 5 to 10%. Actually,
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to be quite honest, it's usually anywhere from 1 to Tech% of
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your audience will take an action, will participate.
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So it might not be a lot. So if you have a 100 listeners to
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your podcast, which is pretty common, maybe only 1 to
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Tech people will actually take an action, might give a tip or might
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subscribe. But, you know, I think if you do a good job,
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it might trend more towards the 10%, which is pretty good. Right?
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You know, we all often do the calculation of, like, you know, a lot
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of podcasters, they are interested in monetizing. Takes a lot of
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effort to put together a podcast Passy you know, and and getting rewarded for
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it is, it feels good. So a lot of times we do the
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calculation, you know, between, like, fan monetization
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versus sponsorships, which is another common way to earn money, of course.
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And a lot of times, yeah, fan monetization kinda wins out, in terms of
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just looking at the numbers of, you know, how successful it could
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be. And, of course, it's important that if you're a
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podcaster hearing this, that you can't just say, oh, now you can pay for our
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show. You have to deliver value in exchange.
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People aren't just gonna give you money just because you asked for it, but they
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will give you money if you if you provide value
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for what it is you are asking them for. For $5, you better be giving
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them better content or, you know, more episodes
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that are fulfill the mission of what it is you told folks to check
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out, when they came to your show in the first place. What about the,
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leaderboard? How does that one work? Leaderboard is
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just basically in design what we call a face pile.
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Right? It's a pretty light touch, and it's just a way to
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give a little recognition to the fans. Like, we looked across a lot of the
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other creator economy platforms, and they don't really sort
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of pay back the fan, and we're really about that payback. A
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lot like what you said. I I mean, I could go on for hours about,
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you know, giving value and value for value. I'm a huge believer in that.
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And, hopefully, even, you know, I think you you mentioned mentioned
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Podcasting,
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tip you. Right? It's always about value. So as you as you
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mentioned, as we're talking about, you know, value being important, do you
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track or do you have a sense of what are some of the best add
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ons or what are some of the best, like, perks that podcasters are giving
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away or perks that podcasters are finding
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are most effective for growing an audience. Like, if
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I go to the demo page and I look at buy a perk, you've got
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a 3 books on fan engagement for $3, episode
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chat up for 10, private Zoom call. Like, do you kinda take a look and
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track at what people are using those perks
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for? And and if so, any that are standout
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successes? Not really. We have some of our favorites,
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but there's such a diverse group
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of different creators and podcasters using our perks feature.
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And just to give the audience some indication what a perks feature is,
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it's basically an online shop that you could create, very easy
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and offer fans to buy stuff. Right? Usually, they're digital
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goods, things like digital downloads, and some of the
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things you mentioned, like, shout outs and stuff. I
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think, you know, the things that we teach a lot are
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maybe stems from a lot of podcasters we Tech to, and we
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talk to a ton of them, that they're usually afraid to start
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selling something because it's hard to create stuff to sell.
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So we like to, you know, think about stuff that's easy for a podcaster to
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sell. So, like, episode shout outs. Right? We all do
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podcasts. So Doesn't cost you anything. Yeah. It doesn't cost you anything. And
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if you, you know, if you say, hey, you know, buy this episode shout out
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perk, on our fan page, and we'll give you a shout out, then you could
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just start giving shout outs on your, on your podcast.
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So our favorites are the things that are easy and kind of free. You know,
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another good example, it's not free, but, like, a lot of times people just wanna
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meet you for a Zoom call. We kinda call that, like, a higher ticket item.
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Right? So let's say I'm a fan of your your your podcast, Matthew, and I'm
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like, oh, you know, I really you know, Matthew seems like expert in his industry.
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I would love to just get, like, a 30 minute Zoom call with
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them. Well, you know, how are you gonna sell that Zoom call? Right? It's
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hard. You have to kind of, you know, either create a Shopify store or or
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choose one of these types of platforms or you could just create that perk on
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your fan page. So Zoom calls are great, you know, and you could charge you
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know, it's hard to say what to charge for it. But, you know, we've seen
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people charge $200 for a 30 minute Zoom call because they're, you
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know, they're a prolific podcaster. So those are kind of our favorites
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because sort of anyone across the board could do
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that, whether you're, you know, like, a true crime podcast or or or you're
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you're selling financial advice, you know, whatever it is. It's it's pretty
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relevant. Yeah. That's, I like that idea of
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selling the Zoom calls and the consultations. We, might have to think about that and
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and think about implementing that here on the Podcasting Tech show.
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And and one thing that we should let everybody know is that the pricing of
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your Rodecaster. Right? This is a you know, a lot of times Podcasting
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What do you mean by totally different approach? Because recently we did a lot of
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changes. So we changed our name from pod inbox to fan list, and we
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changed our business model too. So, depending on what you
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remember, so for the longest time, we're a paid service,
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in the industry, what's called SaaS. Right? Right. This is this is what I wanna
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get to because on your site, you say the service is basically free. Yeah.
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And now we just as of early this year, 2024,
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we've changed to a totally free model. So we used to have a pro plan
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where you had to pay, you know, about $10 a month to get all the
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pro features. We thought, you know what? You know, we just hated the idea of,
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like, pay walling or feature gating our
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best features for the paid plan. So we're like, well, what if we just gave
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it away for free? So that's what we just we decided to do, and,
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the only way we make money is just based off of transaction fees.
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So, you know, let's say you never use our monetization features.
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You only use our inbox. Well, you get all all the benefits of all the
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pro inbox features now for free. That's amazing. So, yeah, you
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should definitely check out fanlist.com. Tech have a link to it obviously here in the
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show notes. And take a take a spin around. They've got a demo on there.
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They list all the features, so you can kinda see how it works. It integrates
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with some of the other services that we've talked about, including pod
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page. So it's not like you have to give up something else to use it.
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And again, cost you nothing to, check out. So, Pat, before we
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let you go, we have a few questions that we're asking everybody here on the
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show. I know, obviously, you're working on this piece
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of fan engagement, but is there another place inside
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podcasting that you'd like to see improvement? Is there,
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you know, service or changes or something that you think would help the
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podcasting world? Oh,
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that's a tough one. I mean, yeah, my mind is mainly on fan
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engagement. I've been kind of working in and around this industry for, like, 10 years,
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so I think about that, you know, day and night. That's something I think about
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day and night. But we we you know, has a lot
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of, podcast Tech, is thinking about
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AI has come into the conversation quite a bit, and we even think
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about it a lot. Even in the early days of OpenAI, we
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implemented an OpenAI technology not a lot of people know about is
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called Whisper. So that's we use Whisper to do our transcriptions.
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So, you know, by using AI, we're allowed you know, we're able to offer
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transcriptions for free. Whereas before, when we were thinking of doing that feature, we're
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like, oh, should we charge a little bit more for transcriptions? And the way we
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use transcriptions are, if someone leaves you an audio
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message, a lot of times, you know, for some of our high end you or
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high volume users, it's hard for them to listen to every single
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message. Right? So somewhere in the lifetime of
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our product, we thought, you know, we really could use transcription. So because, you
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know, when someone leaves a message, we email the the creator,
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you know, that that they received a message. So if we could put the transcription
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in there, they might not even need to listen to the message if they didn't
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want. So convenience and so like that, we thought AI has been super
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helpful already. You know, they offer this free service, a free transcription
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service that we could build on. But, yeah, as AI
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grows, yeah, I don't know if I could share yet, but like there's some
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of these, really interesting features that we're
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thinking of creating that leverages AI. And,
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kind of in this fan engagement type of, realm.
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So once again, it's under the guise of fan engagement. It's something
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that we're thinking of bolting on to Fanlist. And it's something,
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unfortunately, I can't share too much of it yet, but super exciting.
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And I think that's where the industry, you know, when I think
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of, some of the next technologies that that's gonna rise. Like, we
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have, like, things like show notes already, obviously, that are
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some cool companies and technologies around that. That just makes our
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life a little bit easier. But, you know, when I think about it, it's like,
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how can we use AI to make, podcasting a little bit
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more interesting? Not just to maybe solve a productivity
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problem that we see a lot of AI companies doing, but
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to solve an entertainment problem, maybe.
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So, yeah, that that that's what I'll tease out right now. Alright. And maybe, once
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we release it, we'll have you back on so we could talk about, the new
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features that you're you're rolling out here for Fanlist. I noticed
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that you're using a Shure MV 7 as your microphone.
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Mhmm. I'm curious. What are you using for your
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camera and anything else for recording? Oh,
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my camera, I'm using a Sony a72 mirrorless. Right
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now, it's fuzzy because I don't know why. I
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think I just turned it on before this call, and I forgot to focus it.
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Yeah. It's a mirrorless camera. It's got a pretty nice lens. It's, f
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4 16 millimeter lens.
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It is a nice picture. And actually, somebody else, we just had the show, was
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using the exact same camera. So, obviously, very popular.
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Is there any technology on your wish list? Is
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there anything out there either you know that that exists that
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you wanna get your hands on or something that you want created that would,
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improve your podcast operation? Yeah.
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Something I'm about to go run out to buy today. Maybe I'm
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saying it because you asked me about my camera, but I'm thinking of dabbling with
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a new camera, with a new, mic setup that's a little bit
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more on the go, run and gun type thing. I do a
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lot of traveling. I love traveling. I do a lot for, you know,
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professional life and and personal life.
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So I and I like small rigs. Right? I'm kinda like a big
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EDC geek, you know, everyday carry type guy. You know, what can you throw in
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your bag, and how can you be like a road warrior type
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Samson? So the setup I'm looking at is,
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the DJI Pocket camera. It's I think it's
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called the DJI Pocket 3. It's their 3rd version of their pocket
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camera. And I could talk about that a little bit,
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but it's it's a cool piece of gear, because it also comes with a
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wireless mic. So I think this piece of gear is kind
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of changing the landscape for a lot of vloggers, but I think it's gonna be
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big in podcasting too because, you know, it's a camera that's gonna be
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way better than the camera that's on your, computer, which I'm
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all about. But, like, to haul my rig around, if I if I
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were to show you a picture of my setup, it's it's just it's too much.
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It's insane. You can't throw this in a backpack. So that was the DJI
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Pocket 2? Yeah. Yeah. And it comes
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what's incredible about it is it comes with this wireless mic that
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even the mic is awesome because if you buy buy the mic package,
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it's the DJ wireless microphone,
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package. And that's a cool package in itself if you need, like, multi
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mic. But for, you know, the types of Podcasting that I do,
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interviews, and even being a podcast guest, that's
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you know, I could probably leave all this stuff at home and just bring the
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pocket camera and with that comes with the wireless mic and
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just use that as a podcast setup. I'm not sure how new it is, but
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there also looks like there's a pocket 3 available. Obviously, it's a little
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bit more fun. What I'm talking about. Oh, the pocket 3. Yeah. That's the one
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I'm talking about. The pocket 3. Yeah. I I would not recommend the Pocket 2
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or the Pocket 1. Tech kinda dabbled in those a little bit, and but with
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the top Pocket 3, that's really the game changer, and I think it came out.
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Yeah. I wanna say, like, 6 months ago now. So it's something like that. Nice.
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Well, we'll, we'll put a link to it, by the way, if anybody wants to
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check it out so they could see, exactly what Pat is talking about. And then,
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of course, we always ask everybody, what is the podcast
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that you are listening to? What's the 1 or 2 that, you know, no matter
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what happens, you're gonna make sure that you listen to that podcast when it
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drops? Oh, that's a good one.
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Yeah. It's hard to pick 1. It's like, you ask people what their favorite song
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is or favorite movie is impossible. So similar with me, I would listen to so
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many Rodecaster, but I mean, if I were to choose 1,
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maybe a podcast called My First Million. I love it.
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These, 2 hosts are just super not just
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informational, but entertaining. So, you know, they're kinda
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like a financial I don't even know how you would
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categorize it, but they they talk about start ups. They talk about entrepreneurship,
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and they're very informational. But I pretty much just listened to
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them kind of on the background. I think they have, like, 2 or 3 episodes
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a week. And, they're just entertaining. Very cool.
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Well, we'll, we'll put a link to that show. We'll also put a link to
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fanless as we talked about the product here that Pat is the founder of. And
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we'll also include a link to podcast
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growth hacks. And I assume the website that I'm looking at is a a
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Famless page for it? Yeah. I mean, if you're looking at the
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website, that's just a custom website I built, but I do have a fan list,
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fan page for it too. Yeah. We'll make sure to put a link to that
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so that people can check out the Podcasting action and, check out
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your show as well. Pat Chung, founder of Fanlist,
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thank you so much for being here today. Thanks for having me.
Pat Cheung
Founder
Founder and CEO of Fanlist, a fan page platform designed for podcasters & creators. In a nutshell, Fanlist lets podcasters create an online fan page, where fans can engage in various actions like leaving messages, asking questions, leaving tips, buying perks, subscribing to paid content, and more.