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March 12, 2024
Podcasting in High Definition: Secrets of Professional Podcast and Video Production
Are you passionate about the intersection of podcasting and high-end video production? Then buckle up, and join us as we take you behind the scenes with Charlie Birney - a visionary in the field of podcasting and co-founder and CLO - Chief Listening Officer at Podville Media. He is also the brain behind the insightful book "The Tao of Podcasting." Charlie will share with us his profound understanding of the technical and creative aspects of multimedia production.
We'll discuss Podville Media's journey from a simple podcasting outfit in a coworking space to a bustling high-end facility with three studios. We'll delve into the investments in top-notch recording equipment, practical tips on soundproofing, and the impact of thoughtful studio design. Charlie will enlighten us on the modular wall system that brings client visions to life.
In this episode, Mathew and Charlie will also tackle the challenges of podcast discovery, internal corporate podcasting, and audience engagement. Come and explore the insights around data reporting tools in the podcasting realm.
This episode is a goldmine for podcasters and video producers aiming for excellence in their craft, as well as businesses looking to explore internal communication strategies. Whether you're a budding podcaster or a seasoned professional, Charlie Birney's insights will inspire you and equip you with the knowledge to take your productions to the next level.
Let’s keep pushing the boundaries of podcasting technology together!
IN THIS EPISODE WE COVER:
- (1:33) Charlie’s evolution from audio podcasting to high-end video production: How Charlie's business expanded to meet changing demands and essential equipment and studio space investments during COVID.
- (14:08) Insights into studio design: Charlie reveals the magic behind Podville Media's modular walls and enlightens us on the simple, yet effective, strategies for achieving the best sound quality, even in the most unexpected spaces.
- (21:08) The significance of internal podcasting for companies: An exploration of how companies like Uber and Yahoo utilize podcasting for internal communication and the potential for expansion in this area.
- (27:32) The challenges of podcast discovery and distribution: Charlie and Mathew exchange thoughts on making podcast discoverability more user-friendly and the role platforms like YouTube and Spotify play.
LINKS AND RESOURCES MENTIONED IN THIS EPISODE:
- Charlie Birney's books: “The Tao of Podcasting”, “Podcasting Made Simple“
- Follow Charlie on socials:
* https://www.linkedin.com/in/charliebirney/
* https://www.instagram.com/charliebirney/
* https://www.instagram.com/philosophyofpodcasting/
- Charlie’s podcast recommendations: Mike O’Meara show, The Daily podcast, Pocket Sized Pep Talks, Sounds Profitable, What's Poppin' Penny, For Immediate Release
- High-end equipment discussed: Behringer, Shure SM57, RE27 Microphone, Modular walls
- Recommended software - Casted AI
**As an Amazon Associate, we may earn commissions from qualifying purchases of podcasting gear from Amazon.com. We also participate in affiliate programs with many of the software services mentioned on our website. If you purchase something through the links we provide, we may earn a commission at no extra cost to you. The team at Podcasting Tech only recommends products and services that we would use ourselves and that we believe will provide value to our viewers and readers.**
For additional resources and insights visit podcastingtech.com or follow us on social media:
- Instagram: @mathewpassy
- LinkedIn - /mathewpassy
- Threads: @mathewpassy
- Twitter/X: @mathewpassy
- Facebook - /podcastingtech, /mathewpassy
PODCASTING TECH IS POWERED BY:
- Podpage - Build a beautiful podcast website in 5 minutes
- Podgagement - Engage your audience and grow your podcast!
- Captivate - Easy, professional podcast hosting to create, grow and make money from your podcasts.
- Riverside.fm - Record Podcasts And Videos From Anywhere
- Castmagic - 10x Audio Content With AI
EQUIPMENT IN USE:
- Rodecaster Pro 1st Gen (No longer available). Consider the Rodecaster Duo or Rodecaster Pro II
- EV RE20 with 309a Shockmount
- Rode PSA1+
- iPhone continuity camera but previously the Logitech Brio 4k
- DCMEKA In-Ear Monitors
- BusyBox Smart Sign
Transcript
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We're gonna do something a little bit different on the show today. Instead of just
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going into a single podcaster studio, we are actually going
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to a professional podcast studio setup. We are chatting
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with Charlie Birney. He is the cofounder and CLO at
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Podville Media. It's a podcast studio and production center
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and in the Washington DC area. Charlie is also the
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author of the tale of podcasting, and, we'll have a link
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to it so you could check that out. Charlie, it is great to chat with
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you today. It is great to chat with you, Mathew, and nice to see you
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again after so many years. It's just wonderful. And I'm excited about
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this. It is great to see you again and and excited to chat with you.
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And and, you know, I I've definitely heard you chat with me about the studio
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a little bit, but it'll be nice to get a little bit more in-depth on
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it today. But just to kinda kick off, what was the
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impetus for starting this studio? Like, how did that get
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going? Well, when we first met,
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I think I was still in Gaithersburg, so I'm into my 3rd location.
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And in Gaithersburg, I was there for
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originally unrelated podcast reasons, but it's part of the story. I was in a
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coworking space. And from my background in real estate,
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I I approached coworking with sort of how can this work, and, obviously, we've
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seen the rise and fall, if you will, of WeWork, and that still has somewhat
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to be determined. But there I was sitting in a brand new coworking space
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with 1 on one other guy who did financial advice,
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financial, services. And, actually, he's still doing a
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podcast, doing really well, and I did, oh, close to a 100 episodes
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of, Launch Financial with Brad Sherman of Sherman Wealth. And
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Do you know Brad? Do you know Brad? I do. I I I chatted with
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him a few times. Nice guy. Yeah. Yeah. He's a great guy.
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So at any rate, I was in this coworking space and was, they were
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hoping I could help promote it. I live in Montgomery County, and,
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that's where the building was in Gaithersburg, Maryland here. And
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one day, my friend Jeff Davis walked in, and he was doing some PR
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for this new space. They were gonna get the county executive in, etcetera, etcetera.
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And, he had got me started listening to
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podcasts. The first guy who ever got me started listening to podcasts, Mathew.
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We and I still listen to a show called For Immediate Release about
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B to B marketing, basically. And Jeff was there.
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We were probably having a sandwich one day, and I said, Jeff, why don't we
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do a podcast in this coworking space? Because every
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office in you know, around the the whole office layout is
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doing something different. They had an enewsletter
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lot of Pat Owens. I I listened to Ray Ortega. I listened to
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Cliff Ravenscraft back in the beginning and tried to figure out what this
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thing podcasting was. I'm an amateur musician, so I thought I could use
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my PA system. You can't use a PA system to make a podcast,
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but you can make a lot of noise. So I bought a $100
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Behringer 4 track and used the Shure SM 57
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that I had for open mic and stuff like that. And I started
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to make a podcast called launch work Launch Podcast,
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which was to support Launch, workplaces, and they would
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put that episode out in their weekly newsletter. And I remember
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first someone coming to me and say, I don't know what a podcast is
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or, I how long will this be? And I said, it's as long as
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you're interesting.
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Episodes. And so we had a lot of fun. I did, I think, about 88
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or 89 episodes before I partnered
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with my current business partner, Oscar Ceballos, and moved
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to Glover Park, which is if you're a Washingtonian or, you know, Washington, it's kinda
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North Georgetown on Wisconsin Avenue. He had
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started a studio, a one room studio
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that came out of a terrestrial radio show, and all those formats
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flopped. You remember that, you know, 9, 10, 11, 12 years
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ago, and jack radio and all these other things. So they dumped
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all their radio, if you'll forgive the expression, shock jocks.
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And, there was a show called the Don and Mike show, and that became the
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Mike O'Meara show. And so he went to Mike
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O'Meara and said, let's do a podcast. And I think Mike O'Meara said, what's a
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podcast? And I remember when I started listening to it and
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found found it, you know, trying to find
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Podcasting 10 years ago was was pretty Podcasting. And,
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found finally found episode 1, and here on the microphone
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in my ears comes Mike O'Meara saying, I just want all of you out there
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to know that I'm not one of you. And I thought, god almighty, why
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would he say that? So it's a very successful
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podcast, a great example of a podcast that's that monetizes
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itself. We still host that in our studios every day. So Oscar
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had one little studio in this little office building in Glover
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Park. We met. I interviewed him on one of my shows.
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He was doing business school with, Smith School of
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Business through University of Maryland at the time, and he did an outreach group. I'd
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never been to the Reagan Center, and he did an outreach group for
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his business degree at the Reagan Center about podcasting and
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apps. And so I heard about it on their show. I signed up. I went
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to it. And the way he tells the story, I'm telling it, but is I
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kept asking good questions. So he said, well, when we do a breakout group,
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I wanna sit with you. And that was the genesis of our first studio
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in Glover Park. So we eventually took over half
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of the third floor and and, most of the Tech
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floor, which had been a passport office. And I had a wonderful bullpen,
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Mathew. I'd always dreamed of being a comic strip artist. As you look
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at some of my stuff online, you'll know I like to draw a lot. I've
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gotten 2 new drawings in the past. They're great. I've dreamed of having a
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bullpen. And at that time, this was before COVID, and we
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had this large room where they'd assembled all the passports, so it had a
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railing and a and desks around the edge of it. We used to have 10
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people in there talking. We would buy lunch every day and have 10 people in
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there talking and editing, and it was a joy. And so we
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then we changed the 3rd floor to have 2 studios
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back to back. So we had 1 production room, in the middle, and we
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could use it sort of a double sided production room and then a third
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studio for a newscaster who came in, sort of her studio for
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the most part, and did, the Angie Goff show. She's a local,
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news reporter here and a wonderful miss Angie.
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So that were those were the days when my real estate heart would
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when all 3 studios were going at the same time. That was just joy.
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We were on kind of a membership format we just started out with,
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but the truth of it is it just kept evolving as you would
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assume. And we kept giving so much back to the clients
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and evolving their shows and giving so much advice. By that time,
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I did know what I was doing. And when you paired Oscar and I together,
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I always liked running something with 2 people at the top. We had a
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lot to give. We gave away hours and hours and hours and hours
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of free podcast marketing and podcast advice. And
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the truth of it is people who would rent the studios, the idea
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was some some of them would learn how to run them, and we would let
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them run them, but sometimes we would come in and run. It was a fee
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structure. There just weren't anybody learning how to run their own studio. There
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was one, Sarah Frazier, who's out in LA now, and we're very close.
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But we ended up being sort of a Blue Diamond podcast
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studio where we would help people evolve their shows. And what they wanted to come
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in is, I'm sure you would know, Mathew, is they wanted to come in, have
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a cup of coffee waiting on the table, sit down, and talk, and create, and
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they didn't wanna deal with any of the other issues. We started doing
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Santana Moss's podcast. He was really doing it as a
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proving exercise to get to the big leagues and get on network television. He's former
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Washington red skin. And the University of Miami alumni. Yeah.
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Exactly. Right? And so we did. Tech would come in and pay
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me in cash, and I would freak out. And and that's when
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social media was evolving. We were doing Tana's show, and Instagram
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stories came out one day, and we were producing video for stories that
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afternoon and trying to post it. So we we evolved into doing the podcast,
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to doing very high end video podcast, to doing the social media
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content, whether it was Twitter, whether it was Facebook, whether it was
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Instagram, and then, of course, now TikTok, and YouTube
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shorts. But we would do those for the clients. It just became in,
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so we sort of turned into a high end production studio.
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And I love the days at Glover Park, but it was situated
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for my commercial real estate mind. It wasn't situated near a
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metro. Now I know this from real estate, Mathew.
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Not it doesn't mean people will use the metro, but they
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like knowing there's a metro there, and that's Washington for you. So we
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ultimately moved really during COVID. We had started to
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occupy one room at the studio here at 1900 M Street,
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to do a video production for a local marketing guy who
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wanted a a video production, and then we started working with ESPN
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doing a couple of their shows under the,
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sub name of, The Undefeated, which became landscape,
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in the ESPN family. And then sort of COVID
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hit, and we started to think what was gonna work. We ended up taking
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over this half of the floor of the 4th floor here
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and moving out of Glover Park completely. So we still have 3 studios.
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1 is sort of small one. You can do 2 people or a 1 person
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shot with a camera facing you for the a camera facing you for the person
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who's inevitably remote. And then a slightly larger
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studio, we can do 2 or 3 or even 4 people in a pinch, and
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we've got a very custom made desk for that. And then this the original large
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room that we rented where we can do essentially television shows. We can
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do the White House Historical Association is set up in one corner
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and this ESPN show that we do for Dominique Foxworth in the other side of
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the room. And it's complicated. You know? When I met you, I was
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still learning about microphones, and we've had to learn about lighting
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and the things about lighting that I know and don't know could you know, are
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overwhelming. So to do a really good shot that's that
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you could use on TV, you've gotta eliminate all shadows, and
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we've the money we've spent on lighting, if I knew, I'd I'd go into
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another career, probably. Well, so I I
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wanna I wanna talk to you, actually. Going back to the equipment, that's an Podcasting,
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place to bring up because when podcasters are getting started, right, they're working in
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their home, they're working in their office. Right? Maybe they're taking it on the road.
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You know, we're typically looking at equipment that's in the 60
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to maybe $150 microphone range or maybe a mixer in the
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2 to $600 range. Obviously, when you're dealing with
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a professional studio, you are bringing in the likes of an ESPN and, you
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know, former NFL players and, you know, other big wigs in
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and around our nation's capital, you have to really step up
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your performance. So We did. What, like,
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what were you thinking about when you were making investments in
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microphones and cameras and whatnot to really turn
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this into a professional operation? Well, it's a
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great question. I call it falling forward or to put it in the
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language of Chris Kremitzos from PodFest. It's starting ugly.
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I and and as I think I told you off mic, when I started out,
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I had some Shure SM 57, the kind of thing you could use to
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put a nail into a board practically. But it wasn't until I
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partnered with Oscar, and I think you're on an RE27 there, perhaps. I
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know I am I first talked on a microphone
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that cost more than, you know, $70, and it
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blew my mind away. And I thought, why? Of all the things I'd
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spent money on up till that point, why hadn't I bought a
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really good microphone? And and I probably should have called you up, you know, 2
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years before that because you were the first person I met who had, like, a
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microphone array in front of them, I think. And, anyway, you're right.
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It was a tough decision. We just knew I
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had the instincts that's sort of how dad ran his businesses, that
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the this industry, the media industry was gonna be
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big in terms of what we were doing with podcasting. I didn't know
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it, but even back in Glover Park, my clients were
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asking and demanding video. My intention in the
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beginning, Matthew, as you may know already, was just to do audio.
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It was a big enough chore for me to learn audio after 26 years in
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in real estate and development, and I thought I was gonna be
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perfectly happy running a humble little studio that did audio Podcasting that
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just wasn't gonna work. And so as soon
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as the client started asking and demanding video, we just fell into
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it. So, yes, it was a major investment, mostly on
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my part. And we've borrowed a lot of equipment
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from ESPN, but most of it, we've, you know, we've plowed
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any money we've made back into the investment in the equipment. So
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we have, I don't know, half a $1,000,000 worth of
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equipment here probably. Well, we'll we'll get a few of those
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enlisted, here in the show notes so people can kinda get a sense of Yeah.
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What we're talking about and, like, they're usually very complicated names and
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numbers and and things that most of us aren't gonna know, but still people are
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gonna wanna check it out. We'll have some pictures. One thing you were telling me
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about before we get started that I think is interesting for folks who might be
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thinking about not just recording, but being able to offer
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recording services to other, basically starting a studio. Maybe not to the
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same level, but Right. You know, offering it out to other folks was
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you're talking about the modular walls
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that, you know,
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different clients. How did that come about? Well, in the
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Glover Park studio, we had built a green wall. We painted a green
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wall and found that we really never used it.
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There just wasn't a need for it. However, there is some need
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for different shows to have a different look. And one of the things I learned
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in Glover pa in, Gaithersburg was I
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always forgot to take a picture in the very, very beginning, 11 years ago before
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you and I met. I'd always forgot to take a picture, which I call the
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studio selfie, of me and you doing a podcast
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around that original form form round formica table. Before
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I ever had any soundproofing, I was collecting egg cartons, to be honest with
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you, in a big pile in the corner. I never used them because then I
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started buying, off of, what is it, B and H, Mathew,
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or or, the other one, Sweetwater. W or, yeah, one of
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those big Right. And, and that was the long kind with the
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slits, but not like this little pyramid triangle kind you
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see before behind me. We've set my office here up as sort of
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an Ersatz podcast studio if you needed to to use 1 and our
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other ones are used, also because I'm very loud and they wanna soundproof in my
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office because my voice carries very far. And I have
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animated conversations quite often. So quick
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aside on that topic, and in the first book that I mentioned to
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you, one of my clients does this to this day. If you can't
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afford, soundproofing, speaking about
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that just for a moment, do it in your closet. And you can't buy
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that that quiet that you get in a walk in closet with, you know, your
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clothes and your wife's clothes or whatever you've got in there. And,
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Debbie DeChambeau, one of my first friends and clients out in Gaithersburg, she'll she
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says she still sets up a card table in her closet when she does her
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podcast. Can't do better with the acoustics. You can't buy it.
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Right? So the modular system is pretty simple. We have kind of a
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a ledge, a debit, you know, all along all the hallways here
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at Podville Media, and all of our
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vertical, say, 3 feet wide and 8 feet tall
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panels hang on those, davits. And
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so we have white brick, red brick, distressed
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metal, wood, weathered wood, and
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green. We can turn any studio and then a type
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of panel that also has pegs in it. Local,
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adaptive, DC adaptive, Chris Jones developed the
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system originally for children's rooms where you could put pegs in
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it anywhere just like in an old workbench, and then you can put shelves on
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the pegs and you can put other items, and it's a
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limitless designing sort of Rube
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Goldberg machine where you can create any environment, and then you can
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put, you know, MP in in letters on top of 1 shelf on
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your logo in 1 or a logo card hanging behind you. I
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love mixing, so I often think of it as a high school play or a
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college play where we were building sets. And so we're literally
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doing, you know, high high audio and high video and
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advanced technical stuff as possible, but we're also using sets like we
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did in those theatrical productions. Because if you've
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got got 40 minutes and I've got someone with a good
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back, I can have that whole room change to look completely different, as
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I say, red brick, white brick. And the the brick on these panels is
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not brick. It's just, you know, a plastic fascia. And,
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or, like I say, wood or when I did a golf industry show, it can
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look completely green behind me, which is kind of a cool look. And, I think
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the Mike O'Meara show, if anybody wants to go on YouTube and look at that,
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it's the distressed metal look with 2 sections of
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panels, with the peg in it, and, then you can
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cover over the peg with a black material, which we've done,
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and then, you know, have it shelves that hold sort of the mementos
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from, you know, 30 years of that show. Then on the
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corner of studio a, we can bring in panels that are
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custom built and make it look like a corner of the White House. We do
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a a production with the White House Historical Association, so it's everyone
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is nonpartisan. It's just about the history of the White House. And we can
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make it look it's got the tartan of the White House hanging on one side
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and some of the White House plates behind the host Stewart.
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So you can give any kind of a different look, but we really
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typically don't use green screen or infinity wall or any of those things.
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We we like to do it sort of a mix of new and and old,
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I guess. It's interesting. I like the idea of
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the the not just the modular walls, but also having that kinda, like,
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corkboard being able to change out everybody's accessories. Right? We we're
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obsessed, especially after, you know, COVID and the Zoom age of what do we have
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behind us? What books are we showing? What, you know, what tchotchkes are living on
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the shelf behind us? So the fact that every one of your clients who comes
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in can get a personalized, customized experience
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and really make the show theirs and not just another
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Podville, you know, media show No. Is a is a really
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great thing that you're offering offering. The only thing digital, and
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Passy for power station often uses the Mike O'Meara studio. So they'll
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take all their stuff off the shelves. And then behind her
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is a large monitor, and we'll just put the show logo up on that. We
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used to do that in Glover Park for Santana's show. So we will theme
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it out with the digital if you want. But often when we build this and
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put the shelves and very, good point, we'll put the books that
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that host wants. Maybe the host has written a book or has section of books.
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Maybe a, you know, fake plant. We've got a whole lot of stuff if you
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walk down the hallway. Just limit, you know, unlimited stuff. We've got r two d
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two if you want that. And, then don't forget to
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take a picture so you know how to rebuild it if you need to do
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it 2 weeks from now. Because if you forget that, you know,
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shame on shame on you, because we wanna make it look like it's
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been the same. So our clients love the I I appreciate you bringing it
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up. Our clients love the shelving systems because they're able to bring
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in, and, many clients keep a box of that stuff here, you
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know, just in storage so that they can rebuild that or add to
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it. My gosh. Angie Goff had so much Dolly Parton paraphernalia,
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that it filled up a half a room. So she likes DALL E.
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That's awesome. Well, so as a reminder, if you're listening to this, check out podvillmedia.com.
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You can get a little glimpse of what we're talking about. We'll have a link
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there. Also, while you're checking out the show notes and you're you're interested, check out
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the Tao of Podcasting. That's the book that, Charlie wrote recently
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released, which also features some of his own drawings, which he is great
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at. I I've actually been the subject of a few of his drawings after having,
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interviewed him before, and they're always really good. Before we let you go,
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a couple of questions that we're trying to ask everybody. And so Sure. You know,
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one thing that I wanna know from you is in
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the podcasting space in general, whether it's from the listener side, the creator
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side, is there any place that you'd like to see improvement? Any
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new technologies, new services, you know, something that could make it better for
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everyone involved? Wow. What a what a great
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question. I'll I'll sort of take it a little sideways because it occurred to
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me the just before you finished your question. The the thing
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that I like talking about, the thing that I think is
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underutilized so far, and one person who I helped when they were
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starting out is literally doing this for his own company now. He's
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in, legal services, legal informational services. What
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I don't see enough of, Mathew, is the inward facing
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podcast. By that, I mean, a podcast that's made not
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made to be private necessarily, but to made to be
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for the company and for communicating inside
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a company. Do you know what I mean? I actually had a client who I
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I can't say who the client was because it was it was actually proprietary. But,
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yeah, it was the HR, arm that came to us and
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wanted to produce a podcast, and it was meant just for the employees
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there. Talking a lot about DEI and, like, some of the initiatives that they were
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doing with, with other employees. Yeah. I I I'm
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absolutely fascinated by it and don't know why it's not
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happening more. Back when we were renting studios, and we still rent the studio,
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depending on the client and and what their needs are. We you know, we'll give
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it to you for a couple episodes or a day. We had Uber
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come in to our Glover Park studio, and I thought, oh, this is fascinating. Uber's
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doing a podcast. Well, it's not for you and me. It was for
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inside Uber for translate I mean, translating, for communicating their
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ideals and whatever they were worried about, you know, whether it was legal
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or or marketing wise or trying to talk to drivers. Now I've never met
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a driver who who had heard of the podcast, so I'm not sure which
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part of the company it was meant for. But they came and rented our
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studio for about 4 hours one day. Yahoo has rented
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our studios a couple times. We do a lot of that, but I'm fascinated by
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the inward facing podcast. And Ray Ortega, who I mentioned to you earlier,
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he worked before he went moved to the West Coast. He lived here in
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Maryland and worked for NIH doing a podcast. Now it was
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hard to find that podcast. You had to burrow
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down on their website, and you had to know which page.
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But finally, I found it one day because he gave me the breadcrumbs, and there
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were 2 little blue hyperlinks, you know, but it was just really for
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the doctors. Understand. Fascinates me. You know that
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11 years ago, you and I were saying spend most of our time explaining to
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people what this thing they call a podcast is, and I think Cliff
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Ravenscraft used to tell a story about that and pointing out what that purple icon
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on your on your iPhone was meant to be, and nobody knew what that purple
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thing was. Now today, mostly, I say to people, why aren't you podcasting?
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Because there's so many good reasons. There's so many different financial levels. You could do
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it with your phone if you want. It'll sound like you did it with your
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phone. But, but there's so much whether you're and I
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came from a commercial real estate background. A lot of times on that
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show, I mentioned FIR, they talk about the CEOs behind the door
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because CEOs usually come to work and they shut their door. And most of the
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people in the company are fascinated and interested in the c I
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the CEO, and and sometimes they're sort of an iconic figure
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to those people. And I have said to previous bosses, why
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don't you do video? Why don't you address your company? Even on
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Slack, people don't do video addresses to say thank you, this.
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My wife had been very sick. I did a Slack inside our 10 person company,
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and I got a thunderous response back because everybody's in those
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larger companies. Everybody wants access to the CEO, and you've probably
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heard in some groups they've done, hey. Win lunch with the CEO, or
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once a month, the CEO has has a, you know, a meet and greet
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with people. And I'm like, why aren't these groups doing more
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inward facing communications? I just don't
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quite understand, maybe you do, why there isn't more of that. I think it's
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starting to catch on. But It is starting to catch on. I think the big
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is the distribution. Right? The whole joy and the benefit of the podcast is being
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able to download, have it on your phone, listen in the car, listen while you're
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working, things like that. And when they are private and proprietary,
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the platforms are getting much, much better to do that. But, it it is
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a expensive and complicated thing sometimes to arrange that.
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We we tried to work with a pharmaceutical company, and the level
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of security that was required just overcomplicated the
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project to such a degree that it it just it wasn't even worth it.
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They just wound up recording audio and just putting on the backlink on their, you
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know, Internet. Right. So that's that's probably one of the bigger ones.
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And I I think also just I don't think people
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appreciate how useful it could be. I agree with that. But like you
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said, sometimes you put that stuff out in workers like, I didn't even know this
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existed. I'm not gonna list it. Right? I'm I'm already on company time, and I'm
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on company time. I'm not using non company time to listen to more stuff for
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the Right. Well, what is it? Tom Webster calls the media diet,
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and, you know, the people who aren't listening to podcasts might not ever start because
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they've got other stuff they do. I mean, you have a you have a
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very fancy studio. You have a lot of good stuff, but is there any tech
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out there that's on your wish list to to improve the
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studio or just something you wanna get your hands on or something you wanna see
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created, to help you guys up? Well,
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we're working with Casted now because the thing that didn't
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exist until recently is the right the right numbers, the right feedback.
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The reporting which the clients have asked, you're aware of this probably as much
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or more so than I. The the feedback, the actual demographics, if you
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will, of the podcasting consumption. And, that is something
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we've searched and searched for. We've talked about building ourselves, but we're
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working with a company called Casted, now c a s t e d, and Lindsey
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Chip Lindsay Tjepkema, who post quite regularly about, what
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they're doing on LinkedIn. It's absolutely fascinating, and it
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is also incorporating AI into
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doing really functional data
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reporting. That's what we need. What what as an aside, what
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I find still the feedback I get, and I don't know if
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you know Ariel Nisblad and what is her Sure. You
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know, is the collation of how do I find this? Now you and
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I know how to find podcasts, Mathew, but a lot of the
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feedback that I get from the non listeners is, well, I I'm never
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gonna be able to find my food group, my my special interest.
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And, you know, you gotta look if you're gonna find it, back to an old,
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you know, joke dad told. But the aggregation
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of content still seems to be something that's underdone. I think Ariel
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does it with what she's accomplishing, and I'd love to meet her
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someday and talk to her about what she's doing. But finding those
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in your zone of interest, I guess you you gotta
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lead the horse to the water, right, because they're not gonna look. You
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and I both know, again, how to find those things. It's not really that
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hard, but that seems to be a problem. I think it's
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interesting to see what Katie Kremitzos has done with her network of
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meditation podcasts, and there's there are networks out there now. But
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then you've gotta kinda saddle saddle up to the, you know, come up
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to the network and jump in. I think, the New York
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Times is trying to do that with their audio app. Right? But I still think
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there's a lot of growth there, and I don't think it's fully baked yet
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because now that we have TikTok, YouTube Shorts,
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Instagram, Reels, etcetera, etcetera, how do we blend
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all of that together? I can't watch a YouTube short
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and necessarily find your show, your audio show. Now if you're
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doing a good job as a YouTube producer, you should have all your links there.
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Right? But I won't name names, but I've got clients
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who I finally trained to make Instagram posts about their show who have
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no hyperlink. So we're still at a place where we're not functioning
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and giving enough feedback and giving the discoverability.
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I think the thing that I need that we're I think we found with this
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company is the data that I can share with my clients
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because they want that feedback. You know what I'm talking about. They want those
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numbers. They wanna be able to use I guess, the right way
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is to say, I need data that's actionable so I can
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know what kind of a monetization, what kind of content,
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what kind of content that I'm putting out there is the most appealing
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and the most vital and the most worth my time. Right?
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Since day 1, that's been one of the biggest complaints from clients has always been,
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you know, how do I get better data? How do I know who's listening? And
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interesting about the discoverability, right, it's easy to go to a podcast store and find
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Podcasting. Or if you know what you're looking for, type in the name. But right,
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I I'm, you know, trying to find a podcast about x, and there's
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just 100. It's just like, how do you figure out which is the right one
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for you? That's Right. I don't know I don't know how you solve that problem.
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I'm sure Right. People are working on it, but I I kinda feel that that
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way as well. Well, I do have one more item on this topic,
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and, you know, you and I will go let's say we're trying to find out
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about, I don't know, some some hobby, basket weaving,
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overused hobby item. But then we'll look at those 5 shows
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that we've found, and you and I will know to check and
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see if they've done episodes recently
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or not or if they've pod faded or not. But the other folks who aren't
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as deep into this as you and I are don't know that. Right.
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They'll listen to a show for fun and listen to one that's
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faded, then you're disenchanted with the whole thing. You know? It's like,
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screw it. Podcasts are a waste of my time. So that's that's part of
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the problem. I've actually changed my title here, Mathew, sort of a joke,
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but I call myself the CLO because I try to
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listen to as much of our content, if not all of our content, and
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then as much exterior content produced by other people. So I call
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myself the chief listening officer. The thing, I guess, to also
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answer your question that I found, do you remember back, I know you
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do, when we used to listen to the radio, we would simply turn the
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dial. Right? And there's even audio of dials turning and
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tuning into news, tuning into music, tuning into talk shows. Right? It seems
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funny to me that when we're listening to a podcast,
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we tend to hunker down and listen to that whole podcast
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and not turn the dial as much. I have an enormous playlist,
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and I would love an app where I could almost turn the radio dial
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back and forth from shows. So I'll listen to a show. I've
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got 2 former employees who are out doing other shows, and I really
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try to listen to them, but I don't really follow basketball. I'm sorry
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if everybody's groaning at me. And 1 and Ethan does a show
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about the cavaliers, and he's really well done, and I love hearing him. And I'll
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listen to it for a few minutes. Maybe I'll learn and start watching basketball and
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television, and then I'll sweep through and go to the next one.
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So I know Ray Ortega was horrified when I told him that I'd listen at
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accelerated speeds. I still do occasionally listen at accelerated
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speeds. But I'm trying to tune that radio dial, and I don't
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know a functional way of doing that other than just
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manually scrolling on that screen, trying to pick a different
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show. Because as I say, I'm trying to listen to everything that we produce plus
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as much other content as possible so I keep learning. Just like if you are
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a chef in a restaurant, you wanna go eat the other guys cooking. Right? And
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so I don't think other than what I'm doing, which
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is either scrubbing so that I can get to the next show or just
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manually going out and in, I don't know that there's a tool so that we
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could just tune and sample different shows because that's what we were doing with the
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radio. Right? If the WTOP, which is our local news, wasn't talking about
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the traffic, I didn't really care about their content. So they do traffic on the
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8th. If the, rock and roll station back in the day wasn't playing
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Blackwater by the Doobie Brothers, then I was gonna go try to find that somewhere
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else. And it seems to me there ought to be a way, in addition
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to what Ariel is doing to find other shows and sample other
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shows. There was a tool. Didn't you and I talk about this on a
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what was that tool called? Sounder or
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something. There was a tool with a with one of those vowel
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no vowel and then r back in the day that would do
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brief, brief parts of audio. I can't
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remember what that was. I think you and I did an interview a long, long
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time ago, and I might have talked about that, but that died. There was
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an interest in it, and there is no way to sort of
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quickly go through just like when we're channel surfing,
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I guess, is the best analogy, through Podcasting try and find
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that one that you know, even Alice and I will do it. My wife's name
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is Alice when we're, you know, trying to find a show to watch on Netflix.
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We'll just go and look at the trailers. Right? And there's no
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way to do that. And I think that is somewhat makes it
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exclusionary for the non listener, the ones who are not
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listening now. How can I get in? Well, I have to get in, and I
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have to subscribe, and I have to listen to a whole 20 minutes or 30
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minutes of that show. It seems to me that
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it's still a cumbersome process to get orientated to following new
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shows. Sorry if I've gone on too long. No. It's alright. So it's almost like
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what you're saying is the the podcast store, the Apple Podcasting stores, they're
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showing you new and noteworthy ranking shows. Instead of
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clicking on it and just getting the latest episode, it should automatically
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play a trailer or a snippet or a preview that maybe even the Podcasting
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themselves is selected so that people can get a good taste of what they're gonna
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be getting. I think that's a, yeah, I think that's a great idea because, you
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know, when you hover over that show on Netflix, it starts playing
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the movie. Right. Right. Right. It literally plays the
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movie until you decide whether to go on or not. That would
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be great in podcasting. And and what is it? 50%
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of these are videos well now. That would be very interesting.
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Would be absolutely fascinating. I think Spotify
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is is trying to help with some of these things. My daughter is
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24 now. As I told you, my twins are 24 now. She
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won't listen to a podcast, and I can't say if it's all of her generation.
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But unless it's on Spotify, she's like, dad, I won't listen to it. I've
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eliminated the app from the Apple Store, and as long as it's
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on Spotify, I will I will take the time to listen to it. But if
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it's not, I'm not going to. Well, a lot of people say that about YouTube
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as well. Right. Right. Well, we we encourage our
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clients to make YouTube shorts. I'm not making any. I'd like to make some about
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the book, but I just haven't haven't made the time. But, I mean,
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YouTube Shorts are pretty damn darn important right now. Those are being
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consumed massively. And I think what sounds profitable,
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they talk about, you know, the the matter
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that YouTube you can help me out here, Mathew, is one of
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the main ways people are finding podcasts now.
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Yeah. I mean, YouTube we we always talked about this with clients about wanting to
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do video. YouTube is the 2nd largest search engine behind Google itself.
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People just go there to search for stuff. And so if you're not on there,
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you are probably invisible to to a lot of your target audience. It's a
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huge segment. I don't see that as changing.
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So if they can figure out ways to do this this sampling, this changing of
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the radio station, or what Netflix is doing with just letting the dang
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movie roll while you're hovering, And I remember being
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surprised at first. Well, what's going on? And I think it's a great idea,
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so I'll give you credit for that. I think in the idea Apple, if you're
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listening do that. Yeah. Apple, if you're listening, please,
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start start giving us free samples. You you know who I am. Because that's what
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we all want. You know? Excellent. Alright. And lastly,
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you know, I know you work on a lot of shows. You produce a lot
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of shows. Any podcast in particular you're listening to these days, just
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the personal joys or, you know, something you recently discovered that,
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you think is worth sharing? To so many. I'll always
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talk about for immediate release. It took me a month of listening to it before
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I understood what they were talking about. I'm now on a weekly phone call
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with 1 of the hosts, and it's been a great joy to get to know
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him. But that's if you're really interested in in b to b marketing, frankly.
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I love marketing and such has been a passion of mine,
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although I didn't go to school for it. I just like marketing. When dad and
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I were doing work 30 years ago and building brochures, and I I
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liken that, you know, that experience to thinking about what podcasts
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are today, kind of a audio brochure. So I I tend to
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listen in the mornings, Matthew. I don't know if you do to The Daily. One
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of our former employees works on The Daily podcast, so I'm very proud of
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her. I actually was just visiting town, and I actually saw her for the
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first time in 3 years last night. And I tend to like The Daily
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because it's short, and I enjoy getting a
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little, hopefully, nonpartisan catch up in news that I
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probably should be aware of. I've just looked at their app.
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I don't know if I'll use it. Maddie was talking to me about it and
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and was very complimentary of it. So they've, as you know, they've created an audio
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app. I tend to use, as I just mentioned, Spotify a lot.
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Someone in the Maryland Podcasting Association, Rob Dallas, does
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a show called Pocket Sized Pep Talks. Now you're not gonna
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like any all episodes from any one podcaster. Right, Mathew?
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But he does something that I appreciate as someone who listens to a great many
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podcasts. He often does short format. So to
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answer your question right now, because I'm consuming so much,
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I occasionally really like a Podcasting who does something that's
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under 15 minutes long. I really appreciate it. And I
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think sounds profitable generally fits that length. So I would
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I would also answer sounds profitable because I that's a daily.
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It's often less than 15 minutes long, not always.
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And, occasionally, I'll be listening to it and say, wait a
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minute, and go back. There was one before Christmas, and I had to listen to
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it three times because I was like, he really hit the nail on the head
Speaker:
for me on that one. So I'm interested in industry
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news, but I'm also interested in storytelling. My friend
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Steven Hart is a voice on What's Poppin' Penny, which is like the electric
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company or Sesame Street Podcasting for kids, and I think it's
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absolutely delightful. You just get transported
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into this sweet young girl's fantasy world and, you
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know, still like fantasy and science fiction and, getting
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away from the daily grind. So I try to listen to a lot of formats.
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I'd recommend, if if anyone out there is listening to have young kids, to check
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out What's Poppin' Passy. I like The Daily, and I and for industry
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folks, I really do think Sounds Profitable is a must listen.
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Stupendous listening. I'll definitely check out that, one for the kids, see if they're interested.
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We've we've tried a couple of podcasts with them, and it's give or take. You
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know? When you have twins, it's, trying to find something they both like is really
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tough. Well, we Well, we both understand that.
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We have had the joy and pleasure of chatting with Charlie Birney. He is
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the co-founder and CLO. That's chief listening officer at Podville
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Media. You can find them at podvillemedia.com and the author of Tao
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of Podcasting. We'll have a link to that so you can pick it up and
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check it out. Charlie, it has been a pleasure as always. Thanks for joining us.
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Thank you, Mathew. It's been a pleasure to see you again.
Charlie Birney
Co-Founder, CLO (Chief Listening Officer)
Co-founder & CLO at Podville Media | Podcast Advisor, Author & Illustrator | Championing Creative Storytelling and Media Innovation | Pecha Kucha Speaker | Enthusiast of Folk Music