Tom Barrasso Reveals How PodLP Unlocks 3B+ Listeners Beyond Smartphones

Speaker:00:00:00

Well, from what I understand, our guest hears this often, but we are chatting

Speaker:00:00:04

with someone who's probably the furthest away from me possible,

Speaker:00:00:08

with the exception of one other we we did, in Australia. We are in New

Speaker:00:00:11

Zealand chatting with Tom Barrasso. He is the founder and developer

Speaker:00:00:15

of Pod LP. And I don't think I'm gonna

Speaker:00:00:19

do it justice by explaining it, but, he basically, has created

Speaker:00:00:23

software that helps bring podcasts to non smartphones

Speaker:00:00:27

around the world. And, you know, probably most of the listeners don't know how many

Speaker:00:00:30

are out there, but I'm sure we're gonna get some really good information about that.

Speaker:00:00:34

Tom, thank you very much for joining us today. Yeah. Thank you very much for

Speaker:00:00:38

having me. So were you in the

Speaker:00:00:41

podcasting space? Like, did you have interest in podcasting

Speaker:00:00:45

before PodLP? Like, what kinda led you

Speaker:00:00:49

to wanna develop this software? Yeah.

Speaker:00:00:52

But, basically the story starts with the pandemic. Like a lot of

Speaker:00:00:56

people, I no longer had a commute. I had a lot less, to do,

Speaker:00:01:00

a lot more time on my hands. And, I've been getting into this idea

Speaker:00:01:04

of, as a lot of people are and we'll talk about the types of users

Speaker:00:01:06

that that are drawn to feature phones. But, I

Speaker:00:01:10

wanted one basically for digital detox purposes. I wanted to take it camping,

Speaker:00:01:14

for weekend trips. And the issue that I had, my my girlfriend made

Speaker:00:01:18

fun of me at the time. She was like, you'll never be able to do

Speaker:00:01:20

that because they don't have a podcast app. And because I was a developer, I

Speaker:00:01:23

was like, okay, great. Challenge accepted. I'll go ahead and build one. It can't be

Speaker:00:01:26

that hard. So that was more or less when I got started. The

Speaker:00:01:30

the big issue for me then, for folks who are probably aware of the timeline

Speaker:00:01:33

was the podcast index hadn't yet launched and so probably the hardest thing as a

Speaker:00:01:36

developer back then was just getting the feeds together, figuring out how to build a

Speaker:00:01:40

directory. That was definitely the the biggest,

Speaker:00:01:44

challenge to overcome. And then I I launched pretty quickly. I think it took me

Speaker:00:01:47

under a month to actually get it shipped. Although granted, I'll say the very first

Speaker:00:01:51

version of PodLP was about as unglamorous as you can

Speaker:00:01:55

get. Didn't even have thumbnails, because I couldn't figure out how to shrink the

Speaker:00:01:58

images to fit the screen without running into memory issues. So there were a

Speaker:00:02:02

lot of, issues trying to wrangle the world of podcasting to fit,

Speaker:00:02:06

feature phones. Interesting. I'm I'm surprised you

Speaker:00:02:10

say that it's hard to get information on podcast

Speaker:00:02:13

because, you know, everybody classically, when somebody signs up, you

Speaker:00:02:17

say, alright. You sign up for Apple, then you'll you'll find yourself on, you know,

Speaker:00:02:20

a few dozen, other platforms who basically go into their directory.

Speaker:00:02:24

Is Apple's API, difficult, expensive? Like, what

Speaker:00:02:28

what made getting the content from Apple more difficult than waiting for

Speaker:00:02:32

a pod to cast index to come along and, you know, provide this this great

Speaker:00:02:35

resource? Yeah. So at the time, I think one of

Speaker:00:02:39

the biggest challenges with the Apple dataset was,

Speaker:00:02:42

or or the Apple APIs were, they're they're

Speaker:00:02:46

obviously not geared towards this type of

Speaker:00:02:50

user segment, and there are a lot of criteria that mandated the

Speaker:00:02:54

need for a, an API that was specific to

Speaker:00:02:58

this market segment. I'll give you a couple of examples. I I

Speaker:00:03:01

gave the one of thumbnails first off. So So that's something Apple actually does pretty

Speaker:00:03:05

well, but, you can run into restrictions. I know people say

Speaker:00:03:08

like the Apple API is rate limited. When we go into talking about the the

Speaker:00:03:12

version of PodLP that runs in CloudForm, I'll talk about why that was a

Speaker:00:03:16

concern. But perhaps one of the bigger ones

Speaker:00:03:20

was, for PodLP specifically especially launching in India it

Speaker:00:03:23

needed to support IPv6 only use. Something that podcasters

Speaker:00:03:27

probably don't think about. Basically there's two versions of the Internet protocol. In the good

Speaker:00:03:31

old days you had, IP addresses, IPv4. It basically had

Speaker:00:03:34

four numerical segments between zero to two fifty five. So a number like

Speaker:00:03:38

+1 92 1 6 8 0 1. There were I think

Speaker:00:03:42

4,000,000,000 give or take IPv4 addresses which is a problem because there's more than

Speaker:00:03:46

4,000,000,000 people, not excluding all of the devices that we all have today.

Speaker:00:03:49

So, you can imagine that eventually hit a limit and

Speaker:00:03:53

IPv6 solves that. It has, far more IPv addresses.

Speaker:00:03:57

The the addresses themselves are far more complicated.

Speaker:00:04:01

But, and something I get from a lot of podcasters is, well, why why should

Speaker:00:04:04

we care about this? Right? Because in Western markets, the telecommunication operators will

Speaker:00:04:07

handle backwards compatibility with technologies like NAT six four and

Speaker:00:04:11

DNS six four. They basically make it so that IPv four devices

Speaker:00:04:14

connect to IPv services and vice versa. In emerging

Speaker:00:04:18

markets like India, they don't do that. It's just too expensive. It's not worth their

Speaker:00:04:21

time. And so podcasters don't know what they're missing out on.

Speaker:00:04:25

And importantly, the user doesn't know because they don't, the

Speaker:00:04:29

user gets an an ambiguous error and the podcast hosting company

Speaker:00:04:32

never finds out because the user is never able to reach their service, so there's

Speaker:00:04:36

no error for them. They can't see how much, potential they're missing

Speaker:00:04:39

here. So I basically had to have an API that was able to account

Speaker:00:04:43

for things like this and allow me to suppress certain feeds based on the host

Speaker:00:04:47

that they were on. And had I relied solely on Apple, I wouldn't have had

Speaker:00:04:50

the ability to to do things like that. Gotcha. Alright. So they they

Speaker:00:04:54

come along, make it a little bit easier, and and therefore PodLP is

Speaker:00:04:57

born. I think for some folks, I don't think they

Speaker:00:05:01

understand how big the feature phone market is. And and I

Speaker:00:05:04

guess another way people think of feature phones are dumb phones. Right? Not big,

Speaker:00:05:08

tall screen phones like an Android or an Apple device. What are

Speaker:00:05:12

we looking at? How many are out there? Where are they popular?

Speaker:00:05:16

Yeah. How big is this market still? Yeah. It's a great question. So

Speaker:00:05:20

you heard me mention India. The market for feature phones is still quite

Speaker:00:05:23

large. It's stable in countries like The United States

Speaker:00:05:27

where it has resisted declining probably

Speaker:00:05:31

because of a combination of factors. So right now the Piedl P

Speaker:00:05:34

market specifically, India makes up the lion's share of use probably about

Speaker:00:05:38

80% give or take. The United States is actually the second largest

Speaker:00:05:41

market for feature phones worldwide. I think, last year

Speaker:00:05:45

almost 3,000,000 units were sold across The United States. So that's one

Speaker:00:05:49

that surprises a lot of people. Who's buying them?

Speaker:00:05:53

Yeah, who's buying them? That's a great question. I see probably three primary

Speaker:00:05:56

markets here. One are seniors, a lot of these devices are geared towards

Speaker:00:06:00

older folks. The second are children. Parents buying them for their kids that

Speaker:00:06:04

they want to have restricted use and it's a lot easier to restrict a feature

Speaker:00:06:07

phone that only has say a hundred apps than it is to restrict, an

Speaker:00:06:11

iPhone with 3,000,000 apps potentially. And then the third is

Speaker:00:06:15

digital detoxers, you know, Gen Z, Millennials, people who are, trying to get

Speaker:00:06:19

away from scrolling addiction and, probably the easiest way that they

Speaker:00:06:22

found to accomplish that is to remove the temptation by moving to feature

Speaker:00:06:26

phones. Interesting. Alright. So so you those three populations

Speaker:00:06:30

in The US, India, so it sounds like a lot of emerging markets,

Speaker:00:06:34

and a lot of underdeveloped countries where

Speaker:00:06:39

maybe the networks aren't as strong, but, obviously, they still want and

Speaker:00:06:42

need, you know, reliable communication.

Speaker:00:06:47

I guess for a lot of podcasters, we probably don't think a lot about

Speaker:00:06:51

them, especially, you know, ones based here in The US.

Speaker:00:06:55

Do you see them being like a burgeoning podcast consumption

Speaker:00:06:58

market and one that more people should be paying attention to?

Speaker:00:07:02

Oh, absolutely. I I think probably the single biggest reason why you

Speaker:00:07:06

should pay attention to markets, especially ones like India, is that India is the largest

Speaker:00:07:10

English speaking country if you take into account English as a second language.

Speaker:00:07:14

So, you know, there's over 400,000,000 in English

Speaker:00:07:17

speakers in India, well more than those in The United States.

Speaker:00:07:21

And then it's just a faster a very fast growing market. Many

Speaker:00:07:25

people are coming online at a much faster pace than in other parts of

Speaker:00:07:29

the world. If you think about the, digital divide for those who

Speaker:00:07:33

have access to mobile connectivity, you still have about two and a half to

Speaker:00:07:36

3,000,000,000 people around the world who do not have access to any type of

Speaker:00:07:40

mobile Internet connection. That includes basic two g, like, if you're gonna

Speaker:00:07:44

do SMS or calling, like, you get on a a really basic feature phone.

Speaker:00:07:48

There's a huge huge potential in these markets. And

Speaker:00:07:51

audio has a a a really strong potential because it overcomes a lot of the

Speaker:00:07:55

linguistic barriers that you would get in a country like India where if you

Speaker:00:07:59

exclude English, it's a very fragmented market where you

Speaker:00:08:02

have more than a dozen regional Indic languages that,

Speaker:00:08:06

all sort of compete for, you know, pretty large sizes of

Speaker:00:08:10

population. Right? There are languages in India that have more than a hundred million

Speaker:00:08:13

speakers that I bet you most people have never heard of before,

Speaker:00:08:17

and audio is just a much easier format to distribute that information in

Speaker:00:08:21

because it's easier to, for the user to consume. It's more familiar.

Speaker:00:08:24

A lot of them are familiar with radio today. So it's something that they're easy

Speaker:00:08:28

cognitively easier to adapt to. So what's the

Speaker:00:08:32

what's the feature phone version of a podcast store like?

Speaker:00:08:36

What is like, what's the experience like on PodLP? Are there,

Speaker:00:08:40

you know, limitations that

Speaker:00:08:44

smartphone podcast consumers would would visit, or is it really

Speaker:00:08:48

just you were able to shrink all that UX and UI

Speaker:00:08:52

into that smaller screen typically? Yeah. You can

Speaker:00:08:55

shrink quite a bit. PodLP is a long way from when it first

Speaker:00:08:59

launched. There's there's definitely thumbnails now, rich search,

Speaker:00:09:03

categorization for podcasts, feeds that are

Speaker:00:09:06

adapted based on a number of indicators including geography and language.

Speaker:00:09:10

But beyond that it's got a lot of the basic features you would expect. So

Speaker:00:09:13

if you were to open Paddle P today, it'll take you to the home page.

Speaker:00:09:16

You'll see, a set of podcasts that include,

Speaker:00:09:20

sponsored content. So that's how Paddle P is able to sustain its

Speaker:00:09:23

operations, as well as, organic content that is,

Speaker:00:09:27

ranked based on, as I mentioned, language, geography, and a few other factors.

Speaker:00:09:31

And, then you'd click into a podcast. It would look like you would expect today.

Speaker:00:09:35

You have the ability to subscribe. You can change the sort

Speaker:00:09:38

order. You can download individual episodes, on the

Speaker:00:09:42

KaiOS version. In CloudFront, that's not possible, and I'll I can talk a little bit

Speaker:00:09:46

about why that's not possible, technologically. And then,

Speaker:00:09:50

yeah, you can play, you can scrub through a podcast, you can do seeking, there's

Speaker:00:09:53

a sleep timer functionality. So a lot of the things that you might expect

Speaker:00:09:57

are there, but I'll say probably the biggest thing that isn't there,

Speaker:00:10:01

would be automatic downloads. The platforms today don't have that

Speaker:00:10:05

capability and that's something that probably shocks a lot of people in the podcasting world,

Speaker:00:10:08

certainly shocks, subscribers to PodLP. Because, if you think

Speaker:00:10:12

about it, if you have an iPhone or Android today, when you click subscribe, you're

Speaker:00:10:16

so used to having that episode ready there for you. But what that also means

Speaker:00:10:20

is that when a user clicks subscribe, your, download

Speaker:00:10:23

numbers are pretty tightly correlated to,

Speaker:00:10:27

the number of subscribers that you have. It doesn't mean that and a problem that

Speaker:00:10:31

I'm sure everyone in the podcasting world knows, listens are not downloads.

Speaker:00:10:35

That that is the exact opposite in the future phone market without the ability to

Speaker:00:10:39

do automatic downloads. Every download that you get from an app like

Speaker:00:10:43

Paddle P is an organic, listen that is triggered by a

Speaker:00:10:47

direct user action. Right. So it's it's down not all

Speaker:00:10:50

downloads are listens, but all listens are downloads. Right? Because there are

Speaker:00:10:54

some services that, you know, list the

Speaker:00:10:58

their stats differently, and and it's you know, for a lot of people, it gets

Speaker:00:11:01

very confusing. What so

Speaker:00:11:05

because you have access to the podcast index, should folks hearing this who

Speaker:00:11:09

are like, oh, that is a, you know, big market and my content would actually

Speaker:00:11:12

make a lot of sense there. Do they have to get themselves onto

Speaker:00:11:16

PodLP, or are you already kinda grabbing those those

Speaker:00:11:20

feeds from the big directories? Yeah. Not

Speaker:00:11:23

anymore. Since the migration roughly a year ago now, Podolpi is using

Speaker:00:11:27

the podcast index for its back end, so there's no need to submit your feed

Speaker:00:11:30

directly. I think there's an old landing page for that, but it basically is just

Speaker:00:11:34

grayed out and says there's nothing that you need to do here. But if, of

Speaker:00:11:38

course, if you're excluding your feed from the podcast index, then,

Speaker:00:11:41

it's very likely it won't get picked up by PodLP, and there currently isn't really

Speaker:00:11:45

a way to manually override that. What would

Speaker:00:11:48

downloads on PodLP look like in my

Speaker:00:11:52

stats on, you know, standard hosting platforms?

Speaker:00:11:55

Oh, the short answer is it really depends on what host you're

Speaker:00:11:59

using. From the very beginning, I've had hosts that were very proactive. For

Speaker:00:12:03

instance, Buzzsprout, I think they added support for the PYDLP user

Speaker:00:12:07

agent fragment back in probably 2020, not long after it

Speaker:00:12:10

launched. Many posts have been reluctant since then.

Speaker:00:12:14

So if you're looking at PYDLP download today, you're gonna see probably,

Speaker:00:12:19

I could think of at least five or six different things. So

Speaker:00:12:23

it comes from and it's stemmed from the two platforms that PodLP is currently,

Speaker:00:12:27

supporting, KaiOS and CloudPhone. KaiOS is a mobile

Speaker:00:12:30

operating system based on Firefox OS. So if you

Speaker:00:12:34

get downloads from PodLP, and your host doesn't support the user agent, it's

Speaker:00:12:38

probably gonna look like either Firefox, browser, Linux,

Speaker:00:12:42

or occasionally Android because some, KaiOS devices will

Speaker:00:12:46

put Android in the user agent fragment to force websites into a mobile

Speaker:00:12:49

view, so it's sort of a workaround that ends up misattributing

Speaker:00:12:53

downloads. And then if you're on Cloud Phone, it's a little bit different

Speaker:00:12:57

it's going to look like browser, Google Chrome, or Linux and

Speaker:00:13:00

that's because the CloudPhone user agent,

Speaker:00:13:04

CloudPhone is a remote browser basically like Opera Mini, but it

Speaker:00:13:08

runs using the Chromium engine. And so, yeah, hosts will misattribute,

Speaker:00:13:11

Pinelp downloads, pretty much all over the place. And CloudPhone's

Speaker:00:13:15

even more difficult because they use, like Opera Mini, they

Speaker:00:13:19

have a fleet of servers that does transcoding, on the fly to be able

Speaker:00:13:23

to serve content to these types of budget devices. And so the

Speaker:00:13:26

IP address ranges that you're gonna be seeing traffic from is much narrower on

Speaker:00:13:30

Cloud phone as well. Gotcha. So I I have

Speaker:00:13:34

to ask, are you a primarily feature phone

Speaker:00:13:38

person, or are you on smartphones and you're just making sure

Speaker:00:13:41

podcasts are accessible to everyone? I'm on the smartphone

Speaker:00:13:45

for a variety of reasons. But, yeah, it's obviously they're

Speaker:00:13:49

quite difficult to use. There's a number of services that I unfortunately need,

Speaker:00:13:53

on a bit more regular basis. And these

Speaker:00:13:57

devices, because they're so budget tend to have a narrower

Speaker:00:14:00

frequency band and because I'm traveling in places like New Zealand, it just

Speaker:00:14:04

gets quite difficult to be able to have a phone that actually works in multiple

Speaker:00:14:07

countries. You end up sort of buying a new phone everywhere you go. Although I

Speaker:00:14:10

do have a very extensive collection of these phones, I probably have, I don't know,

Speaker:00:14:14

fifteen, twenty of them at this point. That's great. Yeah. You know,

Speaker:00:14:17

I I just wrapped up watching a series that was, you know,

Speaker:00:14:21

supposed to take place, like, late nineties, early '2 thousands, and everybody in the

Speaker:00:14:25

show is using a flip phone. And I'm watching that going, you know,

Speaker:00:14:29

I I don't wanna get rid of my iPhone. Right? It is powerful. It is

Speaker:00:14:32

important. There's a lot of things. But sometimes I wanna leave that at home and

Speaker:00:14:34

just carry a flip phone for people to call me on. I think that would

Speaker:00:14:37

be so awesome. So we have been chatting with Tom Barrasso,

Speaker:00:14:41

founder developer of PodLP. You can, take a look at what they're up to at

Speaker:00:14:45

podlp.com. Tom, before we let you go, some other questions we

Speaker:00:14:49

wanna ask you about, you know, podcasting in general. The first is, you

Speaker:00:14:52

know, you have solved a problem for folks who are

Speaker:00:14:56

not who do not have access to smartphones in bringing podcasts to

Speaker:00:15:00

them. Are there other places in podcasting where

Speaker:00:15:03

you would like to see improvement or you're thinking about, you know, maybe solving problems

Speaker:00:15:07

for us? Yeah. I actually submitted a

Speaker:00:15:11

couple of recommendations to the podcast index when they were coming up at their,

Speaker:00:15:15

the namespace, the RSS namespace. Unfortunately, I don't think they

Speaker:00:15:19

got widely adopted. Alternate enclosures was a big

Speaker:00:15:22

one. I know the podcasters like to record in the highest quality possible

Speaker:00:15:26

and it makes sense for the types of markets when you're prioritizing, say,

Speaker:00:15:30

Apple. But obviously for accessibility, it's just a waste.

Speaker:00:15:33

People streaming, high bit rate podcasts on a four g feature

Speaker:00:15:37

phone that outputs to a really grainy speaker are not benefiting from that

Speaker:00:15:41

quality. If anything, they're just wasting their data on it. So I

Speaker:00:15:44

think that was one. Similarly with, thumbnails like I mentioned, it was always

Speaker:00:15:48

unfortunate to me but, because we always focus in the largest possible

Speaker:00:15:52

device categories, most album most podcast artwork

Speaker:00:15:55

is 2,000, three thousand pixels in size. That is

Speaker:00:15:59

10 times the size of the screen that these things render on. And

Speaker:00:16:02

so, again, it's just wasting pixels here. In fact, I've

Speaker:00:16:06

had many people when they come to put do a sponsor on PaddleView, they ask,

Speaker:00:16:09

you know, what does it look like? And they see the scaled down version at

Speaker:00:16:12

a 28 pixels and like, what? I can't read any of that. Like, yeah that's

Speaker:00:16:15

the point, you can't read it because, you you you

Speaker:00:16:19

couldn't, you know, how could you possibly read on on a half an inch, a

Speaker:00:16:23

quarter of an inch of screen real estate. So yeah I think just getting

Speaker:00:16:26

people aware, I think that's the biggest thing being aware that there's millions of people

Speaker:00:16:30

who would like to consume this content and finding ways to make it more accessible.

Speaker:00:16:33

Technically, finding ways to make it more accessible, in terms

Speaker:00:16:37

of, yeah, the the places that you distribute on, the the devices

Speaker:00:16:41

that you consider, and the markets that you, you

Speaker:00:16:45

know, target. Alright. Have you ever hosted a

Speaker:00:16:48

podcast or do you just like supporting it with, software?

Speaker:00:16:52

I haven't hosted. It's something I've definitely thought about. I've just I've

Speaker:00:16:56

always heard the advice from folks that if you're gonna, you know, start a

Speaker:00:16:59

podcast, it has to be something that you really love because, especially in the

Speaker:00:17:03

beginning, it's not a good business. If anything, it's probably more of an

Speaker:00:17:07

expense. So, yeah, I think I'm just waiting for that idea to come around, but

Speaker:00:17:10

I've always wondered because I have this platform. Right? Like, I have a place that

Speaker:00:17:13

I can promote my own material, that I don't have to pay for. So,

Speaker:00:17:17

it's certainly something that's crossed my mind. Yeah. I mean, with your with

Speaker:00:17:21

your level of technical expertise on podcast and, you

Speaker:00:17:24

know, coding, I'm sure you can provide a lot of value,

Speaker:00:17:28

to folks who wanna have a deeper understanding of what's going on and and, honestly,

Speaker:00:17:32

not just where we are, but where we could be going, especially with a lot

Speaker:00:17:35

of the, you know, RSS two point o stuff. So I I wanna ask you

Speaker:00:17:38

about tech on your wish list because usually people say, like, a microphone or whatnot,

Speaker:00:17:42

and, you know, you've already brought tech to the table for us. So I'll ask

Speaker:00:17:45

you this instead. What podcast are you listening to these

Speaker:00:17:49

days that your are your favorites? The kind that, you know,

Speaker:00:17:52

whenever a new episode comes along, you are gonna stop and go over there, or

Speaker:00:17:56

you are not going to miss an episode of that show. Are there, you know,

Speaker:00:17:59

a few that are just, you know, always on your, you know, regular

Speaker:00:18:03

playlist? Oh, yeah. And you can tell this probably from my

Speaker:00:18:07

website. They'll usually be the ones that I'm featuring, inadvertently in

Speaker:00:18:10

screenshots and other promotional material. So, yeah, I listen a lot to

Speaker:00:18:14

Planet Money from NPR, and, how I built

Speaker:00:18:17

this. Yeah. Just the inspiration of some of these stories, hearing other creators

Speaker:00:18:21

and how they were able to successfully come up with ideas, build,

Speaker:00:18:25

scale, and just the challenges that they faced. Like, for me going

Speaker:00:18:29

through Paddle P, I found a lot of curve balls. There's, like, legal

Speaker:00:18:32

challenges to operating in the Indian market. There's technical ones, like I mentioned,

Speaker:00:18:36

IPV six. There's a lot of things that you just wouldn't think about if your

Speaker:00:18:40

sole focus is, the Western world. And so, yeah, it

Speaker:00:18:43

sort of forced me, to to reconsider that that

Speaker:00:18:47

view and, yeah, expand my technical horizons.

Speaker:00:18:52

Gotcha. Well, once again, we have been chatting with Tom Barrasso, founder

Speaker:00:18:55

developer of PodLP. You don't have to go

Speaker:00:18:59

over there to submit your show, but you should check it out and find

Speaker:00:19:03

your show's link and start to put that on

Speaker:00:19:07

your website next to your other buttons and, you know, show

Speaker:00:19:11

that you are thinking about folks who don't have who don't necessarily

Speaker:00:19:14

have a smartphone. I think that'll be a really, you know I I

Speaker:00:19:18

it's interesting to see it would be interesting to see more of those,

Speaker:00:19:22

popping up in the coming in the coming days and and years and whatnot. Well,

Speaker:00:19:26

Tom, it has been a great pleasure. Thank you so much for joining me. Thank

Speaker:00:19:30

you for having me.